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 Post subject: Gay Wedding Cake Case
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:32 pm 
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You guys been following this shit? Thoughts? At what point does religious conviction become discrimination?


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Tough one. Unfortunately a huge part of religion is centered around discrimination, and legally people are allowed to practice their religious beliefs.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Tough one. Unfortunately a huge part of religion is centered around discrimination, and legally people are allowed to practice their religious beliefs.



Yeah, its hard to draw that line. Its OK to say no to the gay people, but substitute "black" for "Gay" and we have a whole different story.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Tough one. Unfortunately a huge part of religion is centered around discrimination, and legally people are allowed to practice their religious beliefs.



Yeah, its hard to draw that line. Its OK to say no to the gay people, but substitute "black" for "Gay" and we have a whole different story.


And im sure there are religions that discriminate against race, but what happens there??

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:13 pm 
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This one is actually pretty simple. If the state is funding a cake baking business, then yes, you gotta make their gay wedding cake. If its your own private business, you should be free to reject whoever you like. If I have a private business, it's my right to turn someone away for whatever reason I like. Hell, I should be able to turn them away for being black if I want. Now, in the court of public opinion ill be fried...and rightfully so...because we all know half like you have dont..

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:18 pm 
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The problem here is that a parallel is trying to be drawn between breed and sexual orientation. They are not comparable, nor are they equal. I know of NO religion that in its book discriminates against race. They do against non hetero....because the nature of both things is quite different.

If you're going to force a private business owner to conduct their business in a way that conflicts with their faith, you're looking at a very slippery slope across the board for business and employees across the spectrum, and what for....so that two people could have their cake...when they could have easily gone to a cake maker that would have been happy to make their gay wedding cake.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:19 pm 
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The problem here is that a parallel is trying to be drawn between breed and sexual orientation. They are not comparable, nor are they equal. I know of NO religion that in its book discriminates against race. They do against non hetero....because the nature of both things is quite different.

If you're going to force a private business owner to conduct their business in a way that conflicts with their faith, you're looking at a very slippery slope across the board for business and employees across the spectrum, and what for....so that two people could have their cake...when they could have easily gone to a cake maker that would have been happy to make their gay wedding cake.



Ok, so what if it was Muslim couple that wanted the cake, or Jewish, of Athiest, etc? Is it ok for the owners to turn them down?


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:23 pm 
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The problem here is that a parallel is trying to be drawn between breed and sexual orientation. They are not comparable, nor are they equal. I know of NO religion that in its book discriminates against race. They do against non hetero....because the nature of both things is quite different.

If you're going to force a private business owner to conduct their business in a way that conflicts with their faith, you're looking at a very slippery slope across the board for business and employees across the spectrum, and what for....so that two people could have their cake...when they could have easily gone to a cake maker that would have been happy to make their gay wedding cake.



Ok, so what if it was Muslim couple that wanted the cake, or Jewish, of Athiest, etc? Is it ok for the owners to turn them down?


Absolutely! Tolerance has to go both ways.

The thing is, that person wouldnt have a problem with a Muslim, Jewish or Athiest asking for a cake, because none of those things is comparable to the religious conflict that presents with a gay wedding cake. This person is not being intolerant for having and respecting their religious belief. You dont have a right to the bakers wedding cake. This couple who wants their cake at the cost of this religious persons beliefs are being as intolerant as any person who ever said they shouldnt be allowed to marry.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Tough one. Unfortunately a huge part of religion is centered around discrimination, and legally people are allowed to practice their religious beliefs.



Yeah, its hard to draw that line. Its OK to say no to the gay people, but substitute "black" for "Gay" and we have a whole different story.


And im sure there are religions that discriminate against race, but what happens there??


None.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:38 pm 
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I mean whats next, is a satanist going to take said cake maker to court for not making a cake that says "Hail Satan" on it?

You rob discrimination of its definition when you apply it in this circumstance. The system is not allowed to discriminate against people. The individual is allowed to do what they like, as long as it doesnt break the law, or harm, or isnt systemically applied. Since they can go elsewhere and get their cake, none of these boundaries are violated. It's an indication of a sorry state of affairs that this even got as high as the supreme fucking court.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:48 pm 
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It's like these countries out there trying to ban the burka, and the hijab on women, citing that its a symbol of male servitude, and that the quran itself doesnt actually say a woman should wear it, so these countries are banning it.....excusing the fact and reality that sometimes, there are women who have freedom, yet still choose to wear it....so while you try to appease a certain group desires, you completely aim to destroy another groups freedoms by completely dictating every single term of the situation...from reason to ultimate conclusion.

And in the process, you play into the hand of the nutters on that side who take extreme positions but at the same time tell people that..."oh well next they'll make us accept their ways, next they'll make the christian cake baker bake a gay wedding cake".....or the extremist islam equivalent....which may very well lead to you fucking know what....all because you went out of your way to rip hijabs and burkas off of women.

Because theres no tolerance, there is no peace, not here, or anywhere else. And there are plenty out there screaming for it, but very few actually striving for it.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Tough one. Unfortunately a huge part of religion is centered around discrimination, and legally people are allowed to practice their religious beliefs.



Yeah, its hard to draw that line. Its OK to say no to the gay people, but substitute "black" for "Gay" and we have a whole different story.


And im sure there are religions that discriminate against race, but what happens there??


None.


Bull fucking shit. Maybe not technically by the book.....

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Well we know that religions discriminate against other religions. What if the owner is a Mulsim, and won't sell a cake to a jew?


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Tough one. Unfortunately a huge part of religion is centered around discrimination, and legally people are allowed to practice their religious beliefs.



Yeah, its hard to draw that line. Its OK to say no to the gay people, but substitute "black" for "Gay" and we have a whole different story.


And im sure there are religions that discriminate against race, but what happens there??


None.


Bull fucking shit. Maybe not technically by the book.....


Well I can speak for the Abrahamic religions, they dont. No variant of Christian, No Variant of Islam, No Variant of Jew says jack fuckin shit about "race". Tribe yes, which is more location and culture, not racial.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Well we know that religions discriminate against other religions. What if the owner is a Mulsim, and won't sell a cake to a jew?


Christian, Muslim, and Jew are all off shoots of the same lineage. So there is no concrete answer to this at all. In fact, it depends on the cultural proclivities of the area of the religion. The majority of muslims, in their own book are taught to respect other people of the book...meaning christians and jews. This is why there has been many muslim conquerors who after their victory didnt go massacring the christians and jews who remained, instead treated them fair.

But all that is neither here nor there, what right do you have to the private goods of the seller? Its not discrimination if these are private goods from a private company.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Well we know that religions discriminate against other religions. What if the owner is a Mulsim, and won't sell a cake to a jew?


Christian, Muslim, and Jew are all off shoots of the same lineage. So there is no concrete answer to this at all. In fact, it depends on the cultural proclivities of the area of the religion. The majority of muslims, in their own book are taught to respect other people of the book...meaning christians and jews. This is why there has been many muslim conquerors who after their victory didnt go massacring the christians and jews who remained, instead treated them fair.

But all that is neither here nor there, what right do you have to the private goods of the seller?



Hey, I;m not saying right or wrong, I;m just trying to find the line, though I am glad you agree that there should be no distinction between refusing based on sexual orientation, reed, religion, etc. You are right on down the line with the business owner, which is a stance I can respect. its the pople that say its "OK to discriminate against them because of your religion, but not them because they are black".


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:10 pm 
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All of these things are meant to obscure the reality. If I have a good, and my business is private, I can sell it to whoever I like under what ever rationale I choose.

Now, the people as a whole have the right to take my rationale and talk among themselves and decide to boycott my business if they feel so inclined as well! But no one has the right to my goods, and the state doesnt have the right to force me to make my goods for anybody so long as my business is private.

If my business is state owned, then the state can dictate whatever terms they like. Then i can choose between complying or quitting.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:15 pm 
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And if the ruling falls in favor of the gay couple, well then congrats America, you have become what you have long loathed and fought against, communist! State runs the show, no other rights nor freedoms above, not religious freedoms, not personal freedoms, none of that!

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:17 pm 
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America ain't been America in a long time I fear to day.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Like its fucked up that religion has become the focus in this case. It just goes to show how religion is under attack for disingenuous reasons. This case has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with the rights of a private citizen and business owner. And they are looking to paint religion on a stone, and throw it in here at the house (because by facts non religion is growing faster than anything else)...with the real goal of further erode citizens rights! So we'll agree on this shit, forcing the baker to bake the cake... because we hate religion, and look the wrong way when we get screwed out of rights.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm 
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